FALSELY accusing someone of a crime is libel. FTFY.

Not that this is a legal blog or that anyone gives a shit. But if you’re gonna make statements like this at least make some effort to get the basics right.

[quote=“hansifer”]

FALSELY accusing someone of a crime is libel. FTFY.

Not that this is a legal blog or that anyone gives a shit. But if you’re gonna make statements like this at least make some effort to get the basics right.[/quote]

Truth is a defense, not an element of the tort. To establish that defense you have to prove that the statements made were known to be false at the time they were made and were made with the intent to deceive customers. You have no evidence of that. If you’re going to make statements like this at least make some effort to get the basics right.

[quote=“Dragonmaster Lou”]

Maybe where you live, but not necessarily where I live.

The claim that “customers are free to feel swindled” is clearly a statement of opinion. The word “feel” before “swindled” obviously indicates that it’s an opinion based on an emotional reaction. It is not making a factual claim that anyone was in fact swindled, but instead says that people may have the opinion that they were swindled. Statements of opinion, at least based on my own experience as a non-lawyer (including reading several lawyer blogs who go into the subject in detail), are fully protected and legal speech, at least in the USA. If the statement was “Sublime’s author swindled those customers,” it is possibly a statement of fact (the exact context may still put this in the realm of opinion) and then it’s possibly illegal libel.

By your logic, accusing someone of a crime (“libel”) could also be libel.[/quote]

It’s always amusing to see pseudo-lawyers thrash around in their own words.

You claim that accusing someone of a crime is not libel, and to support it you claim that the statements made were not an accusation of a crime. Those are two completely different things, and arguing about the latter says nothing about the statement that I made.

And, incidentally, plain old libel is not a crime.

Perhaps both the critics and the defenders of ST have gone far enough now in this thread?

Why, are you a lawyer? If so, please do educate us on the precedents and statutes that would make me wrong and you right.

Actually, what I said what there was an opinion that people may feel swindled. I never said that accusing someone of a crime is not libel. What I said was the original poster did not accuse anyone of a crime. For example, if I were to say “Joe Schmoe robbed a bank,” that is a blatant accusation of a crime. I stated outright that Joe Schmoe committed bank robbery. If instead I said, “Given his history, I wouldn’t be surprised if people felt that Joe Schmoe was a bank robber,” I am not accusing Joe Schmoe of bank robbery. Instead, I’m stating that in my opinion it’s possible that other people may accuse him of bank robbery. Nowhere in that statement did I accuse Joe Schmoe of bank robbery. In fact, no where in that statement did I say anything about his guilt or innocence related to bank robbery. I did not even state my personal feelings as to whether or not I thought Joe Schmoe was a bank robber. All I said was my opinion on what other people may say about Joe Schmoe. It’s similar to how news reports may say something along the lines of “alleged bank robber Joe Schmoe.” The news report isn’t calling Joe Schmoe a bank robber, it’s simply stating that he has been accused/charged/suspected of being a bank robber by others (usually local law enforcement and the victims of the alleged crime, not that it really matters).

If we’re getting that picky about the issue, true, it’s a civil, not criminal, offense.

[quote=“Dragonmaster Lou”]

Why, are you a lawyer? If so, please do educate us on the precedents and statutes that would make me wrong and you right.

Actually, what I said what there was an opinion that people may feel swindled. I never said that accusing someone of a crime is not libel.[/quote]

There is no other reasonable interpretation of this exchange, which you conveniently snipped:

Accusing someone of a crime (“swindled”) is libel.

Maybe where you live, but not necessarily where I live.

Your reply is wrong, and I’m not surprised that you now want to pretend that you didn’t say it.

[quote=“Dragonmaster Lou”]

If we’re getting that picky about the issue, true, it’s a civil, not criminal, offense.[/quote]

I said it’s not a crime. You said that it is. You can label it picky, but your statement was simply wrong.

[quote=“pete340”]There is no other reasonable interpretation of this exchange, which you conveniently snipped:

Accusing someone of a crime (“swindled”) is libel.

Maybe where you live, but not necessarily where I live.

Your reply is wrong, and I’m not surprised that you now want to pretend that you didn’t say it.[/quote]

I stand corrected then with respect to that particular line, sort of. You are correct that an outright accusation of a crime is likely to be libel. I do not disagree with that. You are also correct that my phrasing there implies that I feel that an outright accusation of a crime is not libel. Reading the line as I wrote it, you are indeed correct. Regrettably, I was too concerned in pointing out the original statement in question as an opinion, not an accusation, and hence didn’t think through my words before typing them up. I therefore fully accept responsibility for making that incorrect statement, even if it wasn’t what I actually meant. What I meant doesn’t matter so long as what I actually said was incorrect.

[quote=“pete340”]

If we’re getting that picky about the issue, true, it’s a civil, not criminal, offense.

I said it’s not a crime. You said that it is. You can label it picky, but your statement was simply wrong.[/quote]

Again, I stand corrected here. In both cases, I let my emotions get in the way of making correct, logical statements, even if what I had intended to say was correct. Part of it is that I’ve seen way too many “bullies,” for lack of a better term, throw out incorrect accusations of “slander” and “libel” in order to silence their critics and/or people they disagree with. Your own post appeared to follow that same pattern.

So, to summarize:

There was no libel in the original statement in question as it was merely a statement of opinion (I feel that people would view Joe Schmoe as the bank robber), not an outright accusation (Joe Schmoe was the bank robber), hence you were incorrect in calling it libel.

I was incorrect in my statement about the whether a false accusation was libel.

I was incorrect in claiming that libel was a crime.

Sublime Text, the sophisticated text editor for code, markup, prose, and legal stuff. Buy it now: sublimetext.com/buy

Not sure if this is relevant to the topic?

This thread has been amusing

[quote=“simonzack”]

: sublimetext.com/buy

Not sure if this is relevant to the topic?[/quote]

Read the last few pages of the thread again…

[quote=“pete340”]

FALSELY accusing someone of a crime is libel. FTFY.

Not that this is a legal blog or that anyone gives a shit. But if you’re gonna make statements like this at least make some effort to get the basics right.

Truth is a defense, not an element of the tort. To establish that defense you have to prove that the statements made were known to be false at the time they were made and were made with the intent to deceive customers. You have no evidence of that. If you’re going to make statements like this at least make some effort to get the basics right.[/quote]

The fact that truth is a defense doesn’t change the definition. If the defendant proves truth, then her actions were not, by definition, libelous.

Libel: any defamation that can be seen, such as a writing, printing, effigy, movie, or statue.

Defamation: any intentional false communication, either written or spoken, that harms a person’s reputation; decreases the respect, regard, or confidence in which a person is held; or induces disparaging, hostile, or disagreeable opinions or feelings against a person.

Source: legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona … nd+Slander

Feel free to cite your own sources if you still disagree.

Pete340: Accusing someone of a crime (“swindled”) is libel.

[quote=“hansifer”]

[quote=“pete340”]

Truth is a defense, not an element of the tort. To establish that defense you have to prove that the statements made were known to be false at the time they were made and were made with the intent to deceive customers. You have no evidence of that. If you’re going to make statements like this at least make some effort to get the basics right.

The fact that truth is a defense doesn’t change the definition. If the defendant proves truth, then her actions were not, by definition, libelous.

Libel: any defamation that can be seen, such as a writing, printing, effigy, movie, or statue.

Defamation: any intentional false communication, either written or spoken, that harms a person’s reputation; decreases the respect, regard, or confidence in which a person is held; or induces disparaging, hostile, or disagreeable opinions or feelings against a person.

Source: legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona … nd+Slander

Feel free to cite your own sources if you still disagree.[/quote]

Do you really want to continue down this rathole? Fine: what proof (not superficial, hostile guesses) do you have that the statement that there was an update scheduled was false at the time it was made, and that it was made with the intent to get money from people? Hint: NONE. You lose.

[quote=“diinko”]

Idiots. Nobody is going to jail over saying “feel free to feel swindled” on the intarwebs. I was recently called a pretentious asshole who should go find a bridge to jump from. I’m sure that’s technically illegal in some jurisdictions, but that’s not quite enough to get that ip->identity subpoena through, now is it?

Move on.[/quote]

Sigh. Nobody who actually knows anything about it said that libel is a crime. It’s not.

[quote=“pete340”]

Idiots. Nobody is going to jail over saying “feel free to feel swindled” on the intarwebs. I was recently called a pretentious asshole who should go find a bridge to jump from. I’m sure that’s technically illegal in some jurisdictions, but that’s not quite enough to get that ip->identity subpoena through, now is it?

Move on.

Sigh. Nobody who actually knows anything about it said that libel is a crime. It’s not.[/quote]

Okay, in that case, anyone who sues over the whole “free to feel like they’ve been swindled” line will be most likely laughed out of the court room if the case is presided over by any sane judge. It’s no different than someone saying “I feel like I was robbed” when they find out that something they just bought was significantly cheaper at another retailer. In neither case is anyone literally accusing either Sublime’s staff or the more expensive retailer of actually committing a crime. Calling either statement libelous (at least to a point where it would matter in a court of law) is absolutely ludicrous.

Fellows, the title of this thread is “Development Status - July 2014”, but your quasi-legalistic exchange has completely obliterated its relevance—except for its numerical part, which will also become obsolete before we realize if we stay on this track. I applaud the moderator’s tolerance—I oppose moderation, in principle—but perhaps we would do well to stay focused. Thank you.

[quote=“Dragonmaster Lou”]
Okay, in that case, anyone who sues over the whole “free to feel like they’ve been swindled” line will be most likely laughed out of the court room if the case is presided over by any sane judge. It’s no different than someone saying “I feel like I was robbed” when they find out that something they just bought was significantly cheaper at another retailer. In neither case is anyone literally accusing either Sublime’s staff or the more expensive retailer of actually committing a crime. Calling either statement libelous (at least to a point where it would matter in a court of law) is absolutely ludicrous.[/quote]

Where did you say you got your law degree? You should demand a refund of your tuition.

[quote=“diinko”]Keep it coming pete340, we need more laughs.

You must be the explanation for the sudden increase in density in the universe.[/quote]

Don’t encourage him. It’s become clear he’s either compensating or just trolling.

I agree with the moderators for splitting off this thread (in fact, they should just delete it). It’s completely off-topic and ridiculous and I regret allowing myself to get baited into contributing to it.

Let’s shut this down.

Can you not just give these arseholes their money back please…then they can go away and the rest of us can enjoy this forum again.

Or maybe you should leave if you don’t like people on this forum.