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Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby user on Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Hi all,

I really like Sublime, like where it's headed, the interface is nice and it's really cheap. But the issue is it's really lacking in clear and transparent support(by this I mean pre-I-need-forum-help, aka documentation), the website is very ugly and the logo has to go.

So, Sublime really needs out-of-the-box functionality that rivals those of Dreamweaver. Be it by bundling plugins or creating ones, it doesn't matter, but a client shouldn't have to install plugins to make it work. I'm a web-dev and I really want out of dreamweaver, but I don't want to have to setup another editor, I want something that works really well.

Judging by the website and everything you seem to be working on this alone, but please get some help on the design and marketing, Sublime is very good, but not a ready-for-sales product. Remember that people want solutions, not different ways to get a headache.

All I ask is that you make this a beautiful install-and-use solution and you got one happy customer. Yes, if this replaces Dreamweaver I'll buy it, it probably does replace it, but only after painstaking plugin install and configuration, not out-of-the-box.

Success!
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Re: Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby lkraven on Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:04 am

I would be mortified if Sublime were to start emulating Dreamweaver, of all things. Everything is crisp, simple, and clean. If you want a prettier editor, check out Coda.

As it is, Sublime is a superb programmer's editor-- something that Dreamweaver is definitely not.
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Re: Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby atomi on Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:30 am

lkraven wrote:I would be mortified if Sublime were to start emulating Dreamweaver, of all things. Everything is crisp, simple, and clean. If you want a prettier editor, check out Coda.

As it is, Sublime is a superb programmer's editor-- something that Dreamweaver is definitely not.


Yup. I don't want a bunch of plugins I don't use bogging down start up time.
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Re: Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby user on Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:09 am

Don't get me wrong, I like sublime exactly because it's crisp and clean and simple. But it's sooo much easier to disable plugins than to hunt them down in some obscure forum post, then test them to see if they actually work, and install them.
I loved Coda when I saw it, but it's Mac only and I'm a pc(I love Windows), I hope they change their mind some day.
And no, please don't emulate Dreamweaver, I hate it's visual web developing tools, but if you've ever used it you know they have great code completion. I am sure there are many plugins that are great as well, for Sublime, but I'm very lazy and don't like running after plugins and customizations, I want something that just works, and I'm sure there has to be others that feel the same.
At least have the best plugins in a beautiful list on the website, and their respective links, making the whole job a lot easier.

As it is, Sublime is a superb programmer's editor-- something that Dreamweaver is definitely not.


That's only true after many plugins installed, and not everyone enjoys installing stuff to make your new production editor actually productive.
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Re: Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby atomi on Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:19 am

user wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like sublime exactly because it's crisp and clean and simple. But it's sooo much easier to disable plugins than to hunt them down in some obscure forum post, then test them to see if they actually work, and install them.
I loved Coda when I saw it, but it's Mac only and I'm a pc(I love Windows), I hope they change their mind some day.
And no, please don't emulate Dreamweaver, I hate it's visual web developing tools, but if you've ever used it you know they have great code completion. I am sure there are many plugins that are great as well, for Sublime, but I'm very lazy and don't like running after plugins and customizations, I want something that just works, and I'm sure there has to be others that feel the same.
At least have the best plugins in a beautiful list on the website, and their respective links, making the whole job a lot easier.

As it is, Sublime is a superb programmer's editor-- something that Dreamweaver is definitely not.


That's only true after many plugins installed, and not everyone enjoys installing stuff to make your new production editor actually productive.


Have you used PackageControl ( viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2746 ) ?
Installing a plugin/package is about as easy as disabling it would be imho.

I think the larger problem is that development productivity on a particular tool depends largely on what that developer is accustomed to and that varies for every developer. So when you say that Sublime Text should be more like Dreamweaver in whatever way, you are going to find some may agree and others may not. Ultimately what does or does not get put in is up to John, but I sincerely believe he bases his decisions largely on the philosophies that have driven unix programming.

Personally , whatever time I've invested into learning and customizing Sublime Text editor to work the way I find most intuitive is weighed against the the future expected gains in productivity I expect that activity will produce. I've found that all the time I've spent learning and customizing the details of Sublime Text, even things like changing icons and color schemes to fit my aesthetic preferences, have been worth my time.
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Re: Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby user on Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:23 am

Have you used PackageControl ( viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2746 ) ?
Installing a plugin/package is about as easy as disabling it would be imho.


No I haven't even heard of that, actually I did, but there was no info on where to download it. This is precisely my point, nothing is really presented right, there's just no way to install stuff without some searching on the forums, and for a professional product that's not acceptable.

I know it's kinda free now, but it sure won't be for long and I'd expect a easy to use product when buying is required. But you're right, what's good depends on past experiences people have with older editors.

So how about a section on the website with the plugins listed in category? Ex:

HTML:
    Plugin codecomplete X
    Plugin codecolor X
    Plugin Xyz

CSS:
    Plugin codecomplete X
    Plugin codecolor X
    Plugin Xyz

Etc...
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Re: Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby SeanWcom on Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:46 am

I don't mean to sound offensive, so please forgive me if I do.

You said:

...but I'm very lazy and don't like running after plugins and customizations...

Then later you mention that you saw Package Manager, but couldn't figure out how to install it... in the post linked to package manager, the author has a link to the installation instructions. The install takes about two seconds. There's no files to copy, nothing to download, etc. The Author has made that easier to install than ANYTHING I've ever installed.

I know that every developer is different, but I don't think this is the editor for a self proclaimed lazy developer. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm still confident that most people here like ST2's plugin system because they can tailor it exactly to their needs rather than install a bloated editor like Dreamweaver.

Again - I don't mean to sound offensive, I'm not one of those people. In fact, I'd rather offer my help... what can I (we) do to help you learn the software (as it is)?
Multiple selections... one of my favorite ST2 features. View some noob-friendly screen casts here.
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Re: Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby user on Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:50 am

in the post linked to package manager, the author has a link to the installation instructions. The install takes about two seconds. There's no files to copy, nothing to download, etc. The Author has made that easier to install than ANYTHING I've ever installed.


You are right, there is no doubt in that. But I only discovered that how-to when someone passed me the link. And please don't get me wrong, the plugin system seems amazing, but their presentation to a new user is very weak.

For example I had to search the internet to find this:
http://www.internubs.com/how-to-setup-s ... velopment/

But the product's(Sublime) webpage should have some of those guides, and of course a little better written and more in depth. I am in no way criticizing the work on Sublime per se, but rather on it's presentation as a commercial product.

That's something I dislike about open-source-mentality-software, there is so much freedom to tweak and change, but the impression they really give is that someone just sat and wrote a program and added plugin capabilities because he couldn't bother to add it to a finished product.

So how about a having 2 versions for download, 1: Naked and ready for plugin install just like you PROgrammers love, and 2: already with basic code completion and other basics.
Whatever, maybe it's just me, I'm just too picky when it comes to products and stuff.

Now just in case the creator of Sublime is reading this: I mean you no harm. I really loved your product, it's excellent and pretty cool. I love it. I just want it to be easier.

Imagine this scenario:
OMG! I need to install an editor on this new computer at work and finish this huge website in one day. Darn! I have no internet connection. Let me see I have a CD with Dreamweaver and there's the install for Sublime on my Usb drive. Hmmmm... which can work out-of-the-box? I have no internet connection to go hunting for plugins, searching the forums, installing and testing them... I guess I'll have to go with that dinosaur of an editor, DM... Oh bother, what can I do...


I know the scenario is ridiculous and unlikely, but I believe every product should be able to provide it's basic, and expected, functions without a need for 3rd party plugins. Plugins should expand functionality, like the Zencode plugin, but if I want basic code completion and I have to resort to a plugin, something is wrong with the product.

I mean no disrespect to plugin developers nor the creator(s) of Sublime. I really like Sublime.
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Re: Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby SeanWcom on Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:40 am

Yeah - at the end of the day, it just comes down to personal preference. I've been writing HTML (and css, javascript, etc) now for 11 or 12 years... I started in FrontPage (ugh) and eventually landed in Dreamweaver and other editors that were much much better than FrontPage. I wrote code for a few years in editors like Dreamweaver that included the kitchen sink.

Eventually I turned into a "notepad programmer" meaning that I write it all by hand, and with only a smidgen of code completion. Before ST2, Notepad++ was my editor of choice. I've gotten to the point now where I'm faster without code completion than with. In fact, I've gone so far as to write and maintain my own code completion library in AutoHotkey that works universally, in whatever editor I'm in (even in a web form).

...but I believe every product should be able to provide it's basic, and expected, functions without a need for 3rd party plugins.

I think this just depends on where you're coming from. I'm sure there are people here using ST2 that will never write a line of HTML. A Python developer doesn't need an editor with HTML code completion. What you think should be the basic, expected functions are not what the next person expects. That's why we have plugins. So that everyone can tailor the editor to meet their basic and expected needs.

Anyway - I'm the kind of person that doesn't mind spending 8 hours configuring things to be EXACTLY like I want them (which I then have Dropbox automatically sync to all my computers, so I never have to do it again). Not everyone will be like me, so I get where you're coming from... but I wouldn't expect ST2 to get to that level of "done" that you're looking for. I may be completely wrong (I've only been around for a couple months now), but I expect that the author doesn't plan to add too many more "out of the box" features.

Oh - and about documentation - yeah, there could be more... but ST2 is still in development, still in beta/alpha/whatever... so until that beta tag is lifted, I doubt there will be too much official documentation.

By the way... don't try gVIM. :) I got sucked into that rabbit hole and spent a week learning and tinkering with it. Hahah! That's an editor that is more powerful than anything I've ever used, but the learning curve is crazy - and way beyond me. :)

Anyway... I've spent way too much time writing this. I need to actually go write code now. Hahah! :lol:
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Re: Plugins to beat the crap out of Dreamweaver

Postby iamntz on Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:45 am

I'm the only one who think the ST already beat the crap out of dw? :mrgreen:
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