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Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby weslly on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:39 pm

I have bought a lot of software in the past with poor (or almost non-existent) support and I didn't expect Sublime to be better at this point. I'm using Sublime everyday for the last 2 years and didn't have any serious bug.

I'm sorry if you guys are experiencing so much trouble. As other people said, you can try to get a refund.

Also, there are lots of great alternatives.
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Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby bizoo on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:53 pm

davejones wrote:
gregor.hoch wrote:I think what a people just don't understand is that (a) sublime is developed by one person who I think now hired two more people and (b) support is incredible time consuming. 90% of bug reports are based on user errors. The original poster, for example, reported a bug about a parsing error as an example and it was pretty clear that the "bug" was either a user error or a bug in a package. Now, you can argue that support means to solve the problems people have. But ST is not able to do that and I really hope will try. Instead, I hope the developers focus on making ST a better text editor, which they are clearly doing!


The error I've posted was meant to be the start of a list of weird and dumb errors ST2 likes to spit out for no reason sometimes.... It's always another file and another thing.

The guy is doing nothing to offer support to the customers, no offense. There are REAL DEFECTS AND REAL BUGS which he's not fixing and they're all over these forums. I've bought ST2, NOT ST3. I expect to GET SUPPORT FOR ST2, not be told to wait for ST3, nor be told by people on the forum "hey, dude, it's REALLY cheap, just pay a few bucks when ST3 is out to get the new ST and get rid of the bugs". I really expect to receive actual SUPPORT from the actual legal entity (firm, company, whatever) which is providing that software.

The fact that he was just a single person isn't our problem. We've paid money for that software and we really deserve support. We don't have the source code - we can't fix it ourselves. So we're left at the mercy of this guy who seems to have vanished or to be ignoring everyone...and I really don't care what his problem is as long as he all but completely evaporated and then suddenly released ST3 beta.
If he's just one single person, it's his problem. I believe he's sold over 100000 copies of ST2. That means we're talking about 5900000 USD. I don't know about you, but with that kind of money I could hire enough people to build a corporation around a product.

Given how much money he's been paid for the licenses he's sold, I really don't think it's a financial problem. People live off of far smaller amounts of money in this world and he has certainly received a lot of it since he released the ST2 beta. If he's really earned at least 5 million USD, you could say he may have had 200k-400k USD of debts to pay, 1-2 millions to pay in taxes and so on. He'd still have more than enough to afford himself to hire a team to: a) run a community, b) maintain an issue tracker and get feedback from customers, c) handle some project management tasks and d) answer emails from customers.

So him being just him and 2 guys in his organization is entirely his problem and it's his concern.

If that's too difficult for people to understand, please let me know so I can just forget about it.

Keep cool please, do not speculate on something that nobody knows.

As a fairly long ST user, I can testify that there's some kind of support from jps.
In the past during ST2 development and now with ST3 development, reported bugs are often fixed in a very short time, unfortunately often without any kind of feedback in the forum: you have to check the changelog or try yourself the new build to see if your bug is fixed.

I have great respect for jps, he's brilliant and very efficient. But communication doesn't look like his strong point.
I'll not throw the first stone, it's not mine either.
And everybody know that it's a very time consuming task, and that must not slow down development of new features too much.

But I think there's some kind of compromise to find to make everybody happy.
Why not spending at most one hour a day to give some help and feedback to users and eventually fix issues in past version (read ST2).

My 2¢.
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Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby natebeaty on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:16 pm

weslly wrote:I have bought a lot of software in the past with poor (or almost non-existent) support and I didn't expect Sublime to be better at this point. I'm using Sublime everyday for the last 2 years and didn't have any serious bug.

I'm sorry if you guys are experiencing so much trouble. As other people said, you can try to get a refund.

Also, there are lots of great alternatives.


Agreed.

I use ST2 at work for .. almost 2 years? It's been rock solid for at least a year—a little rough in the early stages of beta, but stable for a *very* long time for me.

At home I've been using ST3 which has also been solid (much more so than early ST2 betas) and works with all my essential plugins. And every (minor) bug I've reported has been fixed in short order.

That to me is very much worth the $59 I paid in Apr of 2011. I've spent thousands of hours using ST2 and love it. Makes coding a joy.

I sympathize with having issues with the stable branch of software you're purchased, I use other programs with lingering bugs that I run into just about every day (Forklift, I'm looking at you). But it sure doesn't seem to be the norm with ST2. Definitely not my experience.

Instead of pouring so much anger into the forum, it seems to make more sense to try another editor, another community, see if you can find one that fits better. As with browsers, we live in a golden age. So many great choices!
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Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby tito on Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:19 pm

Hello, I do support this editor and the developer, but I have some doubts... this is my opinion don't take it personally.

Does not matter for which languages I use sublime text, IT matter most if the API can work correctly, every function as expected, because this way, we will be able to create and share packages that will "fix" or accommodate, to the infinite different usages(workflows, etc) , that we do when using ST. {2cents}

For example, this API bug is still reproducible in ST3 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6237&start=0

I can't believe ST3 added the following, which is already done via the package "Tag", Instead of putting efforts into fixing API things.
HTML: Tags are closed when </ is entered. This is controlled by the auto_close_tags setting

And is not even implemented correctly, for example, look at the ST3 completion:
Code: Select all
<mega>
   <?php
      $value = '<div>';
         echo '<meta src="">';
      $end = '</mega>

It should have written </div> there instead of "</mega>".

I want you John please, to think if you are doing good, by adding features that are already implemented by packages, instead of fixing core things. I believe you should concentrate into providing a strong and full featured API. Look at Firefox and chrome, chrome almost stay the same since the beginning, Firefox introduced so many changes, and have broken so many add-ons, that I switched of browser.
The package system and it's community is not something to subestimate... they add value to your software.

I don't want to disable things on every update. Today I installed ST3 to give a try, and I noticed I can't edit the "Preferences.sublime-settings", I wanted to do a quick hack, I just closed the window and continue to use ST2.
Give APIs, let the community build the rest!
https://github.com/titoBouzout
tito
 
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Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby davejones on Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:14 am

bizoo wrote:
davejones wrote:
gregor.hoch wrote:I think what a people just don't understand is that (a) sublime is developed by one person who I think now hired two more people and (b) support is incredible time consuming. 90% of bug reports are based on user errors. The original poster, for example, reported a bug about a parsing error as an example and it was pretty clear that the "bug" was either a user error or a bug in a package. Now, you can argue that support means to solve the problems people have. But ST is not able to do that and I really hope will try. Instead, I hope the developers focus on making ST a better text editor, which they are clearly doing!


The error I've posted was meant to be the start of a list of weird and dumb errors ST2 likes to spit out for no reason sometimes.... It's always another file and another thing.

The guy is doing nothing to offer support to the customers, no offense. There are REAL DEFECTS AND REAL BUGS which he's not fixing and they're all over these forums. I've bought ST2, NOT ST3. I expect to GET SUPPORT FOR ST2, not be told to wait for ST3, nor be told by people on the forum "hey, dude, it's REALLY cheap, just pay a few bucks when ST3 is out to get the new ST and get rid of the bugs". I really expect to receive actual SUPPORT from the actual legal entity (firm, company, whatever) which is providing that software.

The fact that he was just a single person isn't our problem. We've paid money for that software and we really deserve support. We don't have the source code - we can't fix it ourselves. So we're left at the mercy of this guy who seems to have vanished or to be ignoring everyone...and I really don't care what his problem is as long as he all but completely evaporated and then suddenly released ST3 beta.
If he's just one single person, it's his problem. I believe he's sold over 100000 copies of ST2. That means we're talking about 5900000 USD. I don't know about you, but with that kind of money I could hire enough people to build a corporation around a product.

Given how much money he's been paid for the licenses he's sold, I really don't think it's a financial problem. People live off of far smaller amounts of money in this world and he has certainly received a lot of it since he released the ST2 beta. If he's really earned at least 5 million USD, you could say he may have had 200k-400k USD of debts to pay, 1-2 millions to pay in taxes and so on. He'd still have more than enough to afford himself to hire a team to: a) run a community, b) maintain an issue tracker and get feedback from customers, c) handle some project management tasks and d) answer emails from customers.

So him being just him and 2 guys in his organization is entirely his problem and it's his concern.

If that's too difficult for people to understand, please let me know so I can just forget about it.

Keep cool please, do not speculate on something that nobody knows.

As a fairly long ST user, I can testify that there's some kind of support from jps.
In the past during ST2 development and now with ST3 development, reported bugs are often fixed in a very short time, unfortunately often without any kind of feedback in the forum: you have to check the changelog or try yourself the new build to see if your bug is fixed.

I have great respect for jps, he's brilliant and very efficient. But communication doesn't look like his strong point.
I'll not throw the first stone, it's not mine either.
And everybody know that it's a very time consuming task, and that must not slow down development of new features too much.

But I think there's some kind of compromise to find to make everybody happy.
Why not spending at most one hour a day to give some help and feedback to users and eventually fix issues in past version (read ST2).

My 2¢.


natebeaty wrote:
weslly wrote:I have bought a lot of software in the past with poor (or almost non-existent) support and I didn't expect Sublime to be better at this point. I'm using Sublime everyday for the last 2 years and didn't have any serious bug.

I'm sorry if you guys are experiencing so much trouble. As other people said, you can try to get a refund.

Also, there are lots of great alternatives.


Agreed.

I use ST2 at work for .. almost 2 years? It's been rock solid for at least a year—a little rough in the early stages of beta, but stable for a *very* long time for me.

At home I've been using ST3 which has also been solid (much more so than early ST2 betas) and works with all my essential plugins. And every (minor) bug I've reported has been fixed in short order.

That to me is very much worth the $59 I paid in Apr of 2011. I've spent thousands of hours using ST2 and love it. Makes coding a joy.

I sympathize with having issues with the stable branch of software you're purchased, I use other programs with lingering bugs that I run into just about every day (Forklift, I'm looking at you). But it sure doesn't seem to be the norm with ST2. Definitely not my experience.

Instead of pouring so much anger into the forum, it seems to make more sense to try another editor, another community, see if you can find one that fits better. As with browsers, we live in a golden age. So many great choices!


tito wrote:Hello, I do support this editor and the developer, but I have some doubts... this is my opinion don't take it personally.

Does not matter for which languages I use sublime text, IT matter most if the API can work correctly, every function as expected, because this way, we will be able to create and share packages that will "fix" or accommodate, to the infinite different usages(workflows, etc) , that we do when using ST. {2cents}

For example, this API bug is still reproducible in ST3 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6237&start=0

I can't believe ST3 added the following, which is already done via the package "Tag", Instead of putting efforts into fixing API things.
HTML: Tags are closed when </ is entered. This is controlled by the auto_close_tags setting

And is not even implemented correctly, for example, look at the ST3 completion:
Code: Select all
<mega>
   <?php
      $value = '<div>';
         echo '<meta src="">';
      $end = '</mega>

It should have written </div> there instead of "</mega>".

I want you John please, to think if you are doing good, by adding features that are already implemented by packages, instead of fixing core things. I believe you should concentrate into providing a strong and full featured API. Look at Firefox and chrome, chrome almost stay the same since the beginning, Firefox introduced so many changes, and have broken so many add-ons, that I switched of browser.
The package system and it's community is not something to subestimate... they add value to your software.

I don't want to disable things on every update. Today I installed ST3 to give a try, and I noticed I can't edit the "Preferences.sublime-settings", I wanted to do a quick hack, I just closed the window and continue to use ST2.


Picking another editor after having invested so much time into ST2 isn't an option right now. Some of those great editors mentioned are OS X only and they also cost money. None of them can't even touch ST2.
That's the big problem - ST is too good to switch to something else after having used it for a very long time.

That's why I even bothered to drop by in the hope that the developer might actually bother to say "yes, I didn't update ST2 for a long time, perhaps I should start doing that". However, it looks like there's no chance for that to happen. I'm skeptical.

Also, many people mentioned refunds. Are refunds also given for the hours spent setting everything up, testing packages, testing everything and setting up ST2 to be used in an environment? I don't think anyone can give us back those countless hours.

What's the big issue with providing updates for the stable ST2? And don't tell me it's difficult to do or "hey, go ask for a refund".
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Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby tito on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:11 am

AS for the main question, I forget to mention, I don't expect any more updates for ST2, looks like there is a terrible effort into bringing a much better editor which probably requires all the available resources.

However, if you purchased ST2 you can still get updates via ST3 Beta, That's the update you should expect. I never run a ST2 stable version, my current version is nightly 2219.

In this case. Given the facts, I don't expect more updates.
Give APIs, let the community build the rest!
https://github.com/titoBouzout
tito
 
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Location: Montevideo, Uruguay

Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby ntenney on Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:01 am

I personally don't completely understand all the angst in this forum. First of all, I've pretty much considered the dev builds to be the bug fix track for this product. If you look at the release notes for the dev builds, it shows that JPS has been at least attempting to answer user feedback. The last dev release was in late September, so somewhere around 7 or 8 months of bug fixes came out before JPS began to hit ST3 hard.

But the thing that really bothers me is all the people who try to guess at how many licenses JPS has sold for st2. In my opinion, all your math and estimation sucks. I personally install ST2 on anywhere from 6 to 10 separate machines, including a couple of virtual machines hosted on other machines that have st2 installed. So, trying to guess based off of package manager downloads is a fallacy. Also, to those who complain that he should hire people to help with the development/maintenance of ST, with what funds should he do so? Someone quoted a number of somewhere around $600k in licence revenue and said that he could hire several people at that rate. I don't know how things are done where you come from, but where I live, programmers expect to get PAID. On top of that there is administrative overhead (legal contracts, NDA's, workers comp, federal tax laws) that come in when you move from being independently employed to being an employer. Additionally, to keep a staff employed, you need a steady revenue stream. If JPS spent the next 2 years after releasing st2 just doing st2 support and not working on st3, then he spends the next 2 years basically making nothing. How's he supposed to pay his staff then?

As for the person that brought up open source and the ability to go in and fix issues themselves... When was the last time you fixed a bug in an open source project that you weren't paid to maintain? I'll tell you, mine was about 9 years ago when I submitted a fix to the broadcom network driver in Linux. Most of the time, I'm simply content to work around whatever issue I'm running up against and wait and see if it gets fixed. I usually submit a bug, but not always. In general, open or closed source, you are usually at the mercy of some other developers time/focus. If JPS feels that the best way to address the issues listed against st2 is to develop and fix those issues in st3, then there's little that you or I could to do change his mind. For that matter, not having seen the code base or organizational structure, I wouldn't feel qualified to tell him that's the wrong move. The radio silence is a little disconcerting, but which would you rather do if you were JPS: do productive work; or put on your asbestos underwear and wade into a volatile thread on the forums where people question your work ethic, your competence, and/or the value of the product you create?
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Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby tito on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:47 am

Sorry, I posted my opinion in the wrong thread, I fully support this editor and developers.

I'm not an usual visitor of the forums, and whenever I enter this looks like a mess haha (probably has some hidden logic)
I'm totally agree with wbond and iamntz.
ntenney has some good points too.

Don't know, I bought even two licenses of this software, 1 for usage and the other sitting in my inbox just to support a really great product.

thread closed for me

regards
Give APIs, let the community build the rest!
https://github.com/titoBouzout
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Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby davejones on Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:11 am

ntenney wrote:I personally don't completely understand all the angst in this forum. First of all, I've pretty much considered the dev builds to be the bug fix track for this product. If you look at the release notes for the dev builds, it shows that JPS has been at least attempting to answer user feedback. The last dev release was in late September, so somewhere around 7 or 8 months of bug fixes came out before JPS began to hit ST3 hard.

But the thing that really bothers me is all the people who try to guess at how many licenses JPS has sold for st2. In my opinion, all your math and estimation sucks. I personally install ST2 on anywhere from 6 to 10 separate machines, including a couple of virtual machines hosted on other machines that have st2 installed. So, trying to guess based off of package manager downloads is a fallacy. Also, to those who complain that he should hire people to help with the development/maintenance of ST, with what funds should he do so? Someone quoted a number of somewhere around $600k in licence revenue and said that he could hire several people at that rate. I don't know how things are done where you come from, but where I live, programmers expect to get PAID. On top of that there is administrative overhead (legal contracts, NDA's, workers comp, federal tax laws) that come in when you move from being independently employed to being an employer. Additionally, to keep a staff employed, you need a steady revenue stream. If JPS spent the next 2 years after releasing st2 just doing st2 support and not working on st3, then he spends the next 2 years basically making nothing. How's he supposed to pay his staff then?

As for the person that brought up open source and the ability to go in and fix issues themselves... When was the last time you fixed a bug in an open source project that you weren't paid to maintain? I'll tell you, mine was about 9 years ago when I submitted a fix to the broadcom network driver in Linux. Most of the time, I'm simply content to work around whatever issue I'm running up against and wait and see if it gets fixed. I usually submit a bug, but not always. In general, open or closed source, you are usually at the mercy of some other developers time/focus. If JPS feels that the best way to address the issues listed against st2 is to develop and fix those issues in st3, then there's little that you or I could to do change his mind. For that matter, not having seen the code base or organizational structure, I wouldn't feel qualified to tell him that's the wrong move. The radio silence is a little disconcerting, but which would you rather do if you were JPS: do productive work; or put on your asbestos underwear and wade into a volatile thread on the forums where people question your work ethic, your competence, and/or the value of the product you create?


You can get someone to intern for you quite easily so you can get some help with some tasks such as: answering emails, issue triage and so on. You don't necessarily have to hire 5 programmers for 100000 USD / year working full time. You can bring in some CS students to work part time.

Also, I fixed a bug in an open source project just yesterday, so you can stop thinking that you're the same as everybody else.

I really couldn't care less about the rest. I've bought ST2 last year and got no updates other than 1 or 2 BETA builds and 2 stable versions. None of those updates fixed any of the issues I've ran into. It doesn't matter for how long it's been updated until that point if the bugs I've ran into are still there one year after I've bought ST2.

I really don't care about anything at all as long as he CAN'T SPEND 2-5 HOURS PER MONTH TO MAINTAIN A STABLE PIECE OF SOFTWARE. I do understand what you've said about him not earning enough money out of this and having to release ST3, but building ST3 doesn't mean he has to force people to give up on ST2 with this scheme! He can do both things - maintain ST2 and build ST3.

Nobody seemed to notice that my anger was actually directed at people who were telling me what to expect in exchange for my money or what to do, that's what bothers me. I've paid a lot of money for a lot of software and most of the time I received support when I had a real issue. You can bet I won't accept being told that it's acceptable to not get any updates because.....the first beta for ST2 was released 2.5 years ago or something like that; I will also not accept being told to use ST3 beta - because it CAN BE USED ONLY UNTIL ST3 IS OUT, IT BREAKS MY PLUGINS AND IS EXTREMELY UNSTABLE NOW.

I'm well aware about the part which concerns the money. I've tried to get in touch with jps, but I've received no reply for more than a month. You can bet I won't back down and that I'm still waiting for an answer from him.

A reply from jps saying "sorry, I can't do anything, not even answer your email" would've been greatly appreciated. As for the work ethic, there's nothing left to doubt now. He only answers where it's convenient and he rarely does that.

As for the community, I've seen how things are - most people fail to see that even if everyone pays for ST3, the whole story of ST2 will repeat itself.
I can't pay more money while knowing "updates / maintenance" == "new major versions in exchange of $$$ with added features and old unfixed bugs."
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Re: Updates for the stable Sublime Text

Postby tito on Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:30 am

Yes please forget it, I believe you don't understand or don't want to understand.
Give APIs, let the community build the rest!
https://github.com/titoBouzout
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Location: Montevideo, Uruguay

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