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What's happening

Re: What's happening

Postby macula on Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:04 pm

kaiser101 wrote:I think there is a case of double standards here. The moderators delete messages when people complain about lack of updates from the Sublime team. However, personal attacks on other members are allowed. Someone care to explain that?


I would say that this is not a case of double standards but rather a reversal of standards.
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Re: What's happening

Postby wbond on Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:46 pm

I delete messages from trolls who continue to post new messages that are duplicates of old threads, who insist it is their right to disrupt normal communication, and who are abusive to other users. Such behavior is not welcome. I originally left some messages from said abusive user's different accounts, however as the troll continues to escalate his behavior, I have no remaining tolerance. Once someone starts suggesting users commit suicide, they have made it abundantly clear they are not here to contribute in any sort of productive way.

If you see abusive messages, please flag the posts for review. Do not feed the trolls, just flag them. I have no intention of moderating messages that are critical of Sublime HQ, but I can't stand by and allow abusive users to spew hate in a community that I am part of. If you want to be critical of anyone, even me, do so in polite way, and that should be fine.
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Re: What's happening

Postby wbond on Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:08 pm

I can take fair criticism, and I encourage it. I've even posted in the past that I agree Jon should make more of a point of communication.

I didn't do anything to the user vbond or his/her message. I don't even have privileges to delete users. I exclusively deal with deleting spam and removing posts from the community troll. Please be aware I am not the only moderator, and just because something is deleted or locked does not mean I have anything to do with it.

The troll has been answered multiple times, even Jon has responded to his issues. Abuse of community members is not the kind of community I am willing to be a part of. Feel free to post how you want a response from Jon and Sublime HQ, although if you start acting like a troll and opening multiple messages with the same thing once a day, trying to impersonate Jon or other community members, or use abusive language towards other community members, I will moderate you. If you post fair criticism and aren't abusive, I will not. If you want to go on a tirade, you could use a platform such as your own blog or twitter or whatever. If you have suggestions on how I can do a better job removing spam and trying to keep this community welcoming to Sublime Text users, let's hear them.

Also, you should probably be aware that the most official way to voice your concerns to Sublime HQ is via sales@sublimetext.com and support@sublimetext.com. I can't control if you will get a response, but I know people do get responses. It may have to do with how you treat the person on the other end. I think it is obviously everyone's decisionif they want to purchase and license and continue using the software. If you are a licensed user, I can only imagine your thoughts sent to those email addresses will do more than trolling and spamming in the community forum.
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Re: What's happening

Postby ntenney on Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:08 pm

kaiser101 wrote:So what would you expect if people do not hear from the team or their questions go unanswered? Like vbond said, you are inadvertantly feeding the trolls. And it is not wrong for people to expect updates once in a while. There are people who purchased licenses with the assumption that Sublime Text 3 would be released in the near future. If you cannot take criticism say so. But then do not make claims about being a fair moderator.


I would expect that they continue to act in a civilized manner and not devolve into name calling or wishing harm on others, but hey, this is the internet. Also, this has been said many times over on the forums. Purchase of a license comes with no expectations whatsoever. It explicitly states it on the purchase page. No time frame has ever been given on the release of ST3. So, if anyone purchased a license with that assumption in mind, I'm sorry, but you're probably going to be disappointed. It's unlikely that Jon has set a deadline for release that coincides with your personal definition of "near future".
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Re: What's happening

Postby ntenney on Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:25 am

kaiser101 wrote:Seems to be pretty much a one way street as far as being civil is concerned, but hey, you can claim the high ground. I cant stop that.


I don't think I was making any claim to the moral high ground, but I have posted 52 times in these forums, and I believe that I've been civil throughout, despite being called names and having my intelligence questioned. So, make of that what you will.

kaiser101 wrote:So let me see if I understood this correctly. If you purchased a license when the price was hiked to 70$ and with the rider that this is valid for Sublime Text 3, you were suckered. So now move on, right?


OK, so I think I understand your frustration now. The current license is st3 and previous versions, so if st3 is never released, you don't get what you paid for. I hadn't noticed that change in the purchase agreement, and had assumed that licenses purchased now were for st2 and would be also valid for st3. But I don't think that changes the point I was trying to get across. If you purchased a license, you would have to decide for yourself whether or not you were "suckered". For me, I use ST every day (the latest st3 dev build, specifically, which a license purchaser does get access to), for hours a day. Sure, I could simply ignore the nag screen and continue to use the trial of st3 beta until st3 is actually released, but I'd feel a little guilty just because of how much use I actually get out of st. I purchased an st2 license, so when st3 is released, I'll have to buy an upgrade license, which I will happily do. If Jon had the option already available, he would have had my money months ago.

kaiser101 wrote:Now I can come up with two causes why someone would still want to back jps' lack of communication, you either were suckered into buying a license yourself or you received it as a freebie. I wonder which one is the case here.


How about neither. As stated above, I bought an st2 license at the lower price. I did so because I started using the trial, and found that I was using it every day. It made me more productive than the other tools I'd tried. Plus, I teach college on the side, and the looks on my students faces when I use a template to fill in some bit of code is priceless :) I use ST every day in my day job, and in every lecture I teach. For me, st has more than paid for itself in the time I've saved in repetitive editing tasks. Would I like more frequent releases? Yes. But as far as communication from Jon, I couldn't care less. The only reason I speak up is that I get sick of people ragging on the guy. I don't think he deserves a lot of the angst directed at him in the forums, and I'd rather he spent his time working on st than coming into the forums and posting just so that people feel comforted that he is still working on it. And frankly, I don't blame him for avoiding the forums. If you had released a product, and every time you visited the forums for that product the top post was always "why the hell hasn't he released the next version yet" or "what kind of an idiot creates an editor without feature X" you might not want to subject yourself to that either. So, yeah, I speak up to let Jon know that there are people who try to understand his situation, and to try to point out to those who are critical of him that their assessment of Jon's situation might not be correct.
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Re: What's happening

Postby macula on Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:48 pm

I second @vlink's last post. There are only two ways to explicate Jon's communications shutdown: either he is in serious distress, a matter of life and death, or he blatantly disrespects his paying customers and ecosystem developers—a responsibility deficit, in other words.

As far as I am concerned, I am turning my gaze to Atom.
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Re: What's happening

Postby ntenney on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:05 pm

viink wrote:
ntenney wrote:Yes. But as far as communication from Jon, I couldn't care less.


That solidly puts you in a minority.


I don't think that it does, it's just that those who feel that way don't come into the forums to comment. Also, there's evidence to suggest that a significant number of the negative commenters are in fact the same person using different accounts.

viink wrote:I've worked with many communities over the years, none of which features less communication flowing from developer(s) than ST, along with a fantastic amount of apologists making all kinds of lame excuses why he doesn't have to run his company properly (which normally includes answering paying customers support mail at least once a week.)


I also haven't ever before seen a community with so many people who want a personal email to questions that have been already responded to ad nauseaum in a variety of other places, including the forums. Back in the day, we had a saying "RTFM" which usually also included reading newsgroup histories and forums.

viink wrote:
ntenney wrote:If you had released a product, and every time you visited the forums for that product the top post was always "why the hell hasn't he released the next version yet" or "what kind of an idiot creates an editor without feature X


I couldn't find a single post like that. All the negative posts relates to the total communications blackout, which is completely understandable.


You're looking in the wrong places. Look for any thread regarding printing. There have been several.

viink wrote:
ntenney wrote: I speak up to let Jon know that there are people who try to understand his situation


And that situation is... ?


Fine. You win. I'm an idiot for spending my money on Sublime Text, despite the fact that I use it every day. Jon is an idiot that doesn't know how to run a company or is maliciously taking our money and laughing all the way to the bank, you pick (both of which have been suggested at times in the forums). My theories have no basis in reality, or make absolutely no sense, and there has never ever in the history of software been another company that didn't answer every single support email or question in their forums, even if they were repeats of questions already asked and answered.

In the immortal words of "thumb wars" "I'm ending this transmission..."
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Re: What's happening

Postby ntenney on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:51 pm

viink wrote:
ntenney wrote:In the immortal words of "thumb wars" "I'm ending this transmission..."


Thank god. As an apologist for a badly executed community, it would be nice if you took this elsewhere.


Wait, this is my house, you leave!
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Re: What's happening

Postby pete340 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:26 pm

ntenney wrote:
viink wrote:
ntenney wrote:In the immortal words of "thumb wars" "I'm ending this transmission..."


Thank god. As an apologist for a badly executed community, it would be nice if you took this elsewhere.


Wait, this is my house, you leave!


Don't feed the troll.
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Re: What's happening

Postby mickoz on Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:45 pm

I just read the end of this searching for something else, but it is pretty common for people to want software to do everything (have current moment most wanted features -- even if in 2 days they won't care) for yesterday.

Is Sublime Text a one man show or what? (educate me on this, and yes I could search/RTFM, I'm just being a little selfish there with my time right right now!)

If so, I totally agree with he rathers work on his product than begin to do excessive customer service.

As for me, even if I am not a very long time Sublime user, I think Sublime Text is succesful because it is up to his name mostly. It is special compared to most thing I have saw so far. Fast, etc. There are people at my job who will wish to talk each 15 minutes, but disturbing a developer or similar creative job so much, is counter-productive.

Look a lot of real big company, and you will find they make it very hard to get in contact with them, making you pass through endless faq, etc. before reaching email or telephone (think eBay for example). There are reason for this.

Lot of company waste a lot of money with basic question support, that won't make the product better anyway, just satisfy some people in the very moment, but not necessary in the long run... it is nice, but you cannot always hold hand of everyone (just like I could be less lazy and find the answer myself about ST being a one man show or not -- but there I am being social on a social platform let's say).

Do every software have a lot of releases? No.
Do every software require a lot of releases? No. Sublime is quite mature even if there are problem (I am there to post one very major problem that really piss me off in term of impact, but still I cannot deny Sublime has been more than positive if I put those emotion aside).
And Sublime is very customizable, plugins are created, etc. -- so this can be done to add features you want badly.

I have an idea of the tone here, I have saw this social pattern happen often, and if he is a good guy, chance are it affects him a little. But if he is pragmatic, he has learned, just like a surgeon learn to not go nuts with blood or death, to not invest all his effort there, else the product won't advance at all. It is called a choice, and even if it does not satisfy some or even lot of people, it does not mean it is a bad choice.

Also, it looks like some commenst were made like "I have never see a company/software that was so poor on X..." -- but then for a *lot* of people, they have not seen another text editor as good as Sublime. Maybe he is doing something different or investing his effort at the right place?
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